Anycubic Photon Printer Owners 造訪社團

My photon hase the exact same issue, apperantly ( according to anycubic) my motherboard is broken ( brand new mashine) its getting replaced under warranty

Yes, it is definitely a motherboard. You should contact Anycubic

Thanks for the confirmation. I'll order a new board, im sure delivery times are slow at the moment. Might as well get it going.

The software should give you a material use estimate. Add ~10% and if it's less than the vat holds, just do the math on how empty you want to risk it being.

Once the plate stops going into the resin you can add more resin and nor worry as much about overflowing. .5 will give you good detail.

A full vat will do this no problem since its hollowed. Home the printer, fill it up til it almost overflows the ball joint, and you won't run out.

.05 is plenty good. For layer height. The X/Y resolution is .047, so going lower than .047 doesn't do much. I personally print at .04 but .05 is fine also

If you fill the vat, when the build plate will get in the vat there's a chance that the resin will get on the screws. Or worse, will spill in the printer. Take care of that aspect. When you slice in chitubox, it will tel you the amunt of resin you nee d, if that helps you. And you could refil whenever you think it will run out of resin.
0.5 from my point of view it's ok for that size of print.

I don't have that much experience but that's what I know for now. Hope it's useful.

You should be fine. Also .05 is good...I’ve stuck with .04 because it is about the best all around layer. I’ll let you in on a secret: the photon really doesn’t improve below that: after literally doing dozens of comparison tests, if you have your expo sure correct, there really isn’t an improvement below .04...plus if you double the layers you’ll end up with more light bleed=more overexposure=worse quality instead of better. Until better technology comes out, those low layer heights are more beneficial to laser sla

Oooo you took it apart?!? Nice!

I do .5

Scott Pavlich I think you just answered a few questions for me before I even needed to ask lmao. I got my Photon S a few days ago and I've noticed some light bleed and lack of detail. Been printing 28mm miniatures at .02 with an exposure time of 8 seconds. After this one comes off the plate I'm going to print some more at .04 and see how they turn out.

I really don't care for his files. While not free this dragon is much better. I am on the last piece of the right wing so if you need help let me know. https://www.myminifactory.com/....../3d-print-red......

https://www.myminifactory.com/....../3d-print-red......

I took a rag and doused some IPA on it and let it sit on the spot for a few minutes and then wiped it away.
I saw someone else earlier say something about putting some IPA on it as well and waited then wiped away, but it sounded like they just poured it directly on their LCD. I spent too much to risk that so I used my rag/towel.

If it's already cured, IPA won't help. Scrape with a disposable scalpel.

I was afraid of scraping the glass, but a combination of the plastic scraper that came with it, and fingernails, eventual cleared it.

Kalon Ohmstede if you're careful, you've got nothing to fear. Only hardened steel such as a file will scratch glass.

Tilted is normally the best in my experience...

I thought so too and that was the first one I did, but there were so MANY supports!

Tilted but less tilted than that? And try to avoid putting supports on the model itself, only support from the buildplate

If it had a base I'd say print it straight up. NEVER print anything flat like your second picture. It almost never works especially for a big model like that. Too much surface area at once will certainly tear from supports. If you end up printing strai ght up and down (my recommendation) there is no reason to float the model. The bottom of her feet will end up warped from that flat area trying to cure all at once, again too much surface area. I'd put her feet on the bed.

do you have a link to the stl i will set the model for you if you wish

I know it looks like it but it's not that bad. But if I'm being honest I prefer pursa supporta....

I've found that angled works best, leaning backwards. I printed a miniature leaning forward once, and the support contact points just melted any detail in the area.

Josh Berkley I print stuff flat, works great.

I'd tilt it slightly, and turn it upside down. Less support between the legs etc. Remember you have more detail in the vertical direction, so flat should be avoided if you want as much detail as possible.

Avoid Supports from model

If it isn't broke, dont fix it :p

some improvements, antialiasing eg. If ur using Photon S its good to upgrade to be able to read different file types.

I've had this a few times on.the standard anycubic, try pressing the up.and down buttons when selecting files and see if they appear

1st, we need to know what printer...and check the firmware version. If 3.xx you need to upgrade to 5.0x. This was common to have a USB from any cubic to contain files not compatible with as shipped firmware.

My geekstick that came with the photon S had the test file in a folder. I copied it to the top level (i.e. not in a folder) and the unit could read it.

Thanks all. I installed the UI and drivers using the included stick and then I was able to see the files on my printer. I dont understand why my brand new 32G Samsung USB stick wont work. But both the included USB stick and the separate USB stick I got as a freebie from some company work fine. Here is a link to the USB stick that is not working. https://www.amazon.com/....../ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin......

Rob Reitnauer I have this same usb drive and it works on my photon ?‍♂️

How many files are on your drive. I have an issue where I cant have more than 3-4 files on my drive at anyone time or it can't see them. Wierd bug. But as long as I stay basically below 800mb-1gb it doesn't have a problem.

Colin Wilson Cdt if you don't mind, could you explain how 3D printers are using in dentistry? I keep seeing posts and youtubes from Dentists, but I'm not certain what they are trying to print and how it's used after they do. Thanks!

Hi Michael Rieser we use 3d printers for printing dental models from a digital impression. From the stl file of the mouth we can design more or less design what we want using either meshmixer, exocad or 3Shape software. I am new into printing hence the reason for using a cheap printer. Printers in the dental industry cost around £3k - £15k. Digital dentures is becoming a major part in dentistry so I am just practicing and getting used to the digital format. The key to successful printing in dentistry is that it has to be super accurate so appliances fit in patients mouths.

So you reprint the entire set of teeth to create the appliance for a perfect fit? Is there any casting into ceramics or anything? (BTW thanks for answering me on this.)

Michael Rieser I'm currently printing some stock trays for primary impressions. No casting all digital at the minute milling the denture is the most accurate process but suitable 3d resin are fast approaching.

Hi , i use monocure dental Resin grey for made my aligners , just you have to find the perfect exposure time to print a accurate model , I have a stl of calibration found on a Italian page for dental printing with photon , with it you can find the right exposure time ;)

Colin Wilson Cdt Thanks again for the info.

Simon Vo thanks do you know if it is low or no shrinkage and where do you buy it from?

Colin Wilson Cdt Parameters of Finished Product
Solidify Wavelength: 355nm to 410nm
Flexural Modulus: 1.882-2.385Mpa
Flexural Strength: 59-70MPa
Heat Distortion Temperature: 80°C
Thermal Expansion Coefficient: 95 * E-6
Shrinkage of Vol.: 3.72-4.24%
Shrinkage of Linear: 1.05-1.35%
Tensile Strength: 36-52MPa
Tensile Modulus: 1.779-2.385MPa
Elongation at Break: 11%-20%
Hardness(D): 84D
Glass Transition Temperature: 100°C
Density: 1.05-1.25g / cm3
Notch Impact Strength: 44-49j / m
Skin Irritation: P.I.I ≤ 0.9

Don't know if they correct, bought it from aliexpress/ebay and one from GearBest

Was the printer new? What's the highest bottom exposure time you've tried?

Chris Crute yes, brand new. And the max I tried was 120 if I remember correctly

120 should have been more than enough. You have nothing to loose trying something bonkers like 200 though just to rule it out. I'm not familiar with the eco resin I'm afraid.

Is it the same model each time? If so can you post a picture of it in the slicer with the supports, raft, etc?

Lower the exposure times if ready for bonkers
Did you try printing the cube? Should be on the USB stick

I have been using the eco grey now and have had great success. Your settings look good. Here are my.settings

Chris Crute I have run into this issue many times, I also just got this printer a couple weeks ago. What eventually made me have some success is te-leveling it and making sure my models had enough supports... I still am getting some prints to fail though on this same way so if you find out something let me know

Tiago Maffei what is te-leveling? :)

Adam Strojnowski haven't tried the cube yet tbh... Will do so next though...

Ryan Smith thanks for sharing :)

Chris Moody it's a good idea. Also overcuring can be an issue. As you have s version 12s is quite high. I'm printing with 30s bottom exposure 3 layers and 6s normal exposure both on anycubic green and Elegoo grey. But the temp is 30° for green and 25° for grey.

Seems you have leveling problem.

Is your build plate low enough/close enough to the FEP at the zero position?

Are you sure your building plate doesn't have any warp? I started having failed prints between two prints for no apparent reason. When I tried relevelling I noticed some corners would not hold the paper while the other two were holding it so tight the paper would rip. After some some careful inspection (and a couple more failed prints) I realized one of the plate sides was just slightly warped (I couldn't see it. Found out by using a very straight metal piece on the plate) from me supporting the plate on that side while hitting the print rafts to unstuck them. After cleaning that I started having good prints again.

TL;DR - those plates are aluminum. Aluminum is soft and bends easily. Just a drop in the floor or repeated hits, even from a plastic spatula, will end up deforming it and it will drive you nuts until you figure out what the problem is

Either levelling or the build plate isn’t rough enough for the print to stick to it, it’s like paint it needs a key for it to stick, I roughed mine up with some wet and dry sand paper

Layer Higth maybe is low

Chris Moody oops re leveling

If it sticks to the FEP with that high of a base layer exposure, your Z=0 is too high / set incorrectly.

Well how can I check this? Going down on a piece of paper again?

I have to see how I can check this... if my plate is bent, how can I fix it? Do I need to buy a new one?

really affraid of sanding the plate.. but maybe I'll try it

I got my photon 2 weeks ago. the only settings I've had with any success are .05 layer height, 150 base cure time, 8 base layers, 20 service cure time 2 second between layers. If anyone has any suggestions on how I can get working settings for 0.02mm layer height, I'm all ears :)

I'm using the green anycubic resin

to I can just do the paper method and -0.3mm for example. After that Z = 0 ?

Chris Moody should be under warranty right?

Andy Turtle Consiglio I hope so...

Chris Moody Better use the "Flint Read" method.

https://youtu.be/V45o8udXNsM

As your paper could be thicker than the FEP, and then you have an additional distance on top of the 0.3mm

I know for a fact that I have different thickness of paper to print documents on... thicker paper for "official documents" and cheap, (almost) newspaper like paper for just quick drafts.

I've had some type of problem like yours before, and it resolved with the paper method... but with the addition of the phrase in the FAQ that says "Move the build plate down until you can pull out the paper, but not enter it again" This is the point when you have to level and set the Z=0. Hope this helps

Chris Moody Yes, relevel. But don't do the paper. Follow this Flint Reed method step by step as shown in the video. https://youtu.be/V45o8udXNsM

Had the same problem when I first got mine a week ago, Level the build plate tighter, it worked right away

I had the same problem at first. Turned out that while leveling, when I got it right where I wanted, I hit the home button instead of hitting Z=0, thinking I just leveled the bed. Might possibly be the paper you're using, as well. If you've got a high quality piece of paper, could be too thick. It's supposed to stick to the FEP, which is why it's supposed to make the popping sound when the build plate moves up. It's just supposed to stick to the build plate better. The most common cause for not sticking to the build plate is that the build plate isn't close enough, so the light doesn't get through the resin well enough and cure the resin that's right up against the build plate, creating a mechanical bond.

I do what Eduardo does, too. That's also when I tighten the build plate, which pushes further against the LCD. Haven't cracked the LCD that way, yet.

Johnny Grant that’s a very good explanation. ?

Johnny Grant the popping sound is exactly the important thing. If you can hear it your printer is working as he should

Chris Moody if you put the sandpaper on a piece of glass, then move the plate over the paper, that should ensure it’s nice and flat. Rather that rubbing the sandpaper on the build plate, doesn’t need much going over, just a light touch is required. Hope that makes sense

I always set my Z=0 point very, very tight. On all my 5 Photons I have never cracked a screen, so it works.

I just do the regular paper method, make sure that the bed is absolutely level and then set the Z=0 so tight I can’t move the paper backward or forward. Not just backward. Always worked for me.

Kevin Boogaard that’s the right way. I try to level it where i can pull it, ...but don’t push it....

Just went a bit mental and tightend it as good as I could. The test print with the cube is running now, lets see how it turns out!

Tobias GJ never heard it yet ^^ damn it

Chris Montgomery thanks! Will consider it if this testprint fails again :)

Good luck! Let us know the results. ?

Sand the plate lightly and set the Z hight correctly. Problem solved

I had issues with the way I oriented the part being printed. I have found it’s much better at an angle so there isn’t a large flat spot being printed

Chris Moody just level a bit lower an you will get it ?

How would that explain why there is literally nothing on the bed...?

The print does not even reach the actual model.

You had me at “black”, that’s expert mode resin right there

Rigo Arevalo oh Shit, seriously? Man. I orderen the Green Eco resin now, any better?

The light has a harder time permeating the black resin. I have never used it, but have read lots of testimony here. I’ve used translucent red/green/ blue, and grey. Had great luck with the Anycubic brand of resin but had to adjust with the Elegoo kind, haven’t had time to fiddle with it to get it locked down but I have seen many peeps do so. It can be very frustrating, I felt the same way in the beginning too (200 replies first post) but eventually got it. Someone here is going to reply and give the their winning technique. Good luck and hang in there, when you get it you will totally love the printer too bud

Chris Moody I also saw at least one telling that to set the z=0 you need to really follow the anycubic steps. Don't really remember what the guy(s) had done but the 0 was left at the factory setting and the prints were staying on the fep.
I remember that I made a paper with the tools so I always do the right way, but finally I never had to re-level yet...

Idk if anybody mentioned this already, but your layer height is very low. The stepper motor goes in intervals of .01mm, Something like .05mm would be easier to start with too. +1 that's a hard resin to work with. I've had better luck with transparent p igments than dark opaques. I personally use the paper leveling method, and like what kyle said once I leveled tighter my builds stuck to the build plate just fine. Best of luck!

Chris Moody and I still see sand the plate... Do not sand the plate, the underside of the plate is not anodized so it was milled before it was shipped. It should be straight if you didn't hit it. It is not as easy as some may say to bend, but a small h it at the wrong place can do damages.
If you have doubts about the plate being warped, find something that should be straight, it will give you an idea. If you really seems to have a warp in it, go see a machine shop and ask them if they can check it with their "straight edge" (a tool for that). You can also go see a car garage that repair engine heads ;-)

Oh for Fs sake. Never listen to people who say “sand the build plate”. Please don’t, Marc is right.

Kevin Boogaard I saw the comment right under yours...

I had the same issue, and was about to toss mine also.

Watched a ton of videos on bed leveling.

Ended up replacing my FEP and kept it pretty loose more then I had thought it should be. Also not sure I had the bed height right I’ve seen people level the bed with and without the tray installed. I think the tray should be sitting on that sheet of paper all the videos I saw were without the tray.

All my prints r working and I do love the printer even though I’ve always thought of it as toxic.

Good luck and don’t give up..

Also, if I place a lot of supports to the model, it will create a "base" either way

Thanks guys! Currently a test print is running and I will see the result tmrw morning. Will keep you updated an adjust stuff. I was told the resin I'm using is shite, so I will wait for my Eco Green to arrive ??

Rigo Arevalo thanks, this really would explain stuff. Will keep you updated :)

Eric Sprague I tried 0.05 with this test print and hope it works! Thanks Eric!

James Ruley thank you so much for your Impression on this. I will try a new FEP if this one fails again:)

This post is guaranteed to attract the sand people.

I found it being the base layers have a skate on the file and it's just too thin to be a bse so I made them solidcylinders and that worked

Leveling the build plate =\= Setting Z to 0. They are 2 separate things.

You are making your layer height 0.025.

After you level the plate with the paper method tighten the grub screw. Now, go up by at least 0.01, THEN set Z to 0.


The FEP is about that height off the screen anyway because of the vat. So making your Z-0 height 0.01 you are right on the money.

Alexander Bayerdorffer can you show me a picture explaining how this could look? I'm such a noob ?

Sean Smith will try this next, thanks!

Chris Moody

Also might want to make sure that the machine itself is level. Even a tiny bit off can effect how the print is.

anycubic Black was what I was sent with my printer. Never had any issues with it at all.

This is what I have them look like now

Your plate is probably not going low enough.

Could be the FEP is too loose.

I read somewhere someone once mentioning using a hair dryer on the build plate to warm it up

Run resin calibration test

im gonna suggest the first thing that was suggested to me when i had problems with it not sticking to the bed., the flint read method of leveling the bed. its what i now swear by when re leveling my bed. i do a bit of resin in the vat to keep it from t earing the fep, it does mean that you wont get it to stop moving all the way but i have honestly found that if i lower it to the max and then raise it by .01mm 3 times it works like a charm. currently running egloo grey resin, it has no smell and is alvaible on amazon.

Stephen Mitchell ditto, had my photon for a week now, the flint read method has definitely helped. Still have failures, but that's poor supporting on my end.

Lorenz Nijs as have i. Found I was under exposing my prints. 8 seconds instead of 9 like it's suggested. Someone here shared their set up and it just wasnt working for me.

Look up some how to's on YouTube. It will help a lot.

Had issues with the black resin. Clear worked great

Chris Moody ? + 0.2mm

Dirk Schreckenbach I pressed the plate down as hard as I could, not going up a bit - worked for me now.

Thanks for every help you gave! I lowered the pressure on the FEP even more, leveld so hard I felt the Display will break soon and gave the test print a run. This is the result! Yay! What should I do next for a better result tho?

Chris Moody nice! Congratulations.

What tension is your FEP now?

Kevin Boogaard tbh I didnt record the hz this time, but it must be a tad lower than 250hz. Suppose around 225 :)

It should between 250 and 350. That might very well be the issue here.

Personally I have always ran around 290-300 (because that is how I automatically tension it without checking Hz.) and it has worked great. FEP tension that is too low causes issues similar to this.

Relevel your printer. Make sure your resin is not too cold and well shaked. Check your exposure time for the buttom layer. Nice printing.

How thick is the paper you are using to level the build plate?

Rebekah Anderson absolute normal copy paper...

Chris Moody ok. How loose is the paper when you tighten the screws up?

nice you got it working

Adil Muschelewicz thanks!

Rebekah Anderson the last time I did it before it started working I wasnt able to move it all - seemed to be good!

Chris Moody ?

Please check that the arm that is attached to the build plate is not crashing on the VAT. It's a common problem with the Anycubic Photon. You need to eliminate that first. To test it as its barely visible, empty your VAT, put a piece of paper on the to p of the Vat, Take the build plate OFF, make as if your going to print something, when the arm bottoms out hit pause. If you can't pull out the paper you need to drop the build plate by adding some shims to lower it.If the arm touches the VAT when going to zero you'll never get it right or build plate level. If the arm is clear and not touching your VAT then redo your settings, you dont need 90 seconds for bottom layers 50/60 is enough, clear resin 8/9 seconds should be enough. Light off delay can be 0 really doesnt do much. Don't worry too much about room temperature unless its really really cold. I don't wipe my build plate with alcohol ever, just tissue clean, so the bottom of the build plate always has a bit of stickiness to it. My print rate success is 95% rarely do I not get a model not sticking to build plate.

Nikola Pijanac Thanks! A lot of stuff to work with if it fails me again

Cheers mate, keep at it, its a great little printer will give you tons of joy when you get your head around your particular machine.

Nikola Pijanac yes you are so right.

Nikola Pijanac I totally agree, once dialled in its so worth it.

Rebekah absolutely, I think sometimes people overthink the printer, its not a complex process. It only has one axis up and down the rest becomes intuitive, it'll only take him a week or so of successful and failed prints before he will be able to offer advice and assist others.

Nikola Pijanac agreed, I’m just starting to achieve this with my transform. ?

Excellent, enjoy the process, its very satisfying being able to make your own models, paint them the way YOU want too. It's a good opportunity to learn a 3d package as well something like Blender which is free, so you can repair suspect models etc etc. You'll develop an excellent skill set which in the future will pay dividends.

I had the same struggle with my first Airbrush. You just have to learn and get used to it :) im confident it will work. But on the other hand Im worried since the Tutorials don't seem to help me :D

Use the Flint Read method. Never had an issue by using that method.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V45o8udXNsM

Why not first find the right settings for 1 model and then add more to the plate ? saves you a lot of resin ?

Kevin Lems do far the photon classic has no real way to dial up the resolution. I should have printed it on the S. And I print in bulk because I sell kits. So I need to take that chance. It's worth it in the end. I have 8 resin and 2 filiment printers that run 24/7 365. This stuff happens! But I print at least 100 things a week.
It's part of the process.....I call it success from failures!

Robert Small haha my bad ? tought it was a first time failure ? but in your case I can understand it's worth taking the risk ? what kind of kits do you sell of I may ask? ?

Kevin Lems I'm in the process of designing kits out of early manned space race this was a never realized x20 Dyna-Soar that Boeing had proposed and was to be our first space vehicle before the Mercury space capsule but once Russia launched Gagarin into space we dropped the project for mercury

Looks amazing! ? must be a really fun project to work on ?? did you design the models and parts yourself?

Yes I have been in 3D graphics since 1988.

Damn! You must have a ton of experience! Can I borrow some? ? ? I've just started using Blender and Forger (ipad) for making sculpts and models. Wich programs do you use?

I've used almost every program out there without exaggerating but I can tell you the newest version of Blender is more capable then anyone under designing nuclear reactors could need!
As a matter of fact the new version I notice is starting to mimic al l of the other 3D programs combined. Since it's an open source software hundreds of thousands of us have been making suggestions because we have been using blender and everybody else's program. So you can imagine I highly recommend blender for two reasons it's easy to use and a comprable program costs nothing under than $1,500 a year just to use.
So let that sink in a comprable program to Blender say 3D Studio Max charges you $1,500 a year it is not a one-time cost.

Nice! Thanks for the info ?? gonna stick with Blender ?? it has a lot of functions but there are also a lot of tutorials to follow. So I will keep working with it ?

Kevin Lems let me know if you need help.
I'll point you to instruct if I can.

Look into DAZ if you want humans and animals. The models merge with Blender. And it's a free one also.

Robert Small I'll definitely let you know ?? thanks!

Not sure what you mean? The photon and the s are both capable of the same resolution: looks like your exposure is a problem

Scott Pavlich no...no...my slicers say different. There are no resolution settings to effect the resolution. Even in Chitubox that feature drops off the the classic setting so your ony at the #4 setting as resolution. I print things with very fine detail twenty-four hours a day 365 days a year and I print over a hundred parts a week.

Disagree: you can only print so well with a 2K resolution screen. I can pull equally as well with both my S’s and my reg photons regardless of the slicer

Scott Pavlich cool

Robert Small please explain as i am keen to understand if there is a real difference between the machines or clippers. do you use chitubox for both?

Jim Monty no it's really a few things like how old the screen is. Because I print so much it's most likely that the screen is becoming what turns out to be out of focus. So the slicers settings are no help. I have changed 15 screens in 2 years. And u n otice as time goes buy one if the signs your gear is at the end of life in that screen is what's in this shot.
Plus in 3d (I've been using 3D software since 1988) you're looking at what's called a point cloud and it is what its name defines your 3D model is merely a cloud of points at any time from the transference changing it from one program to the next information can be dropped that while you see the full image on the screen the information may not transfer during the time of the slice.
I've only been doing this for the last 5 years so a tiny bit of what I'm saying is speculation.
But I have to classics two s's and 3 Elegoo Mars printers and even from printer to printer there are minut changes that's so far aren't predictable.

Which has produced the finest detail of your three types?

Jim Monty I think so far the S and the Elegoo are neck and neck. The difference is the cost in screens and noise volume. The S is more the twice the cost of the screen of the Elegoo but.... The Elegoo is real loud! The Anycubic is more restrictive when it comes to access to the interior and the Elegoo is the simplest to level. It's like any tool. You learn in time how you can make the printer do what you want.

Tip time. With a 3D object because the skin changes in dimension of the object simply rotating it in a different orientation in the slicer can sometimes clean up the model.
So by simply going into the slicer in rotating the model into directions you might not think you would want to use or it might be a problem to clean up is sometimes what saves the project.

All of these 5.5" printers have the exact same screen. Some just have different connector ribbons but the screen itself is the same.

Nipuna Gunarathne Thank you.

micro specks of resin stuck underneath the vat (between it and lcd), hardening there and causing holes in prints

Dead spots in screen. Take out vat and run screen test.

It looks like that baddie comes with bullet holes preinstalled.

Bubbles in the resin?

could be dried resin on screen

I did a full screen print right after. And it never does it on the bottom... just towards the top. And only in the one file... bad file maybe?

like everyone is saying, you either got dried resin on the screen or a dead screen. run screen test without vat

Nathan Kopp it doesnt do it consistently... only with those 2 files

could be a unsupported island maybe.... try the file validator

or bad slice but the two main suspects are those

I really am leaning toward bad slice

i would say bad slice check view in slicer, almost all slicers can show you view on old files... i once tried do a miror image so i can have lefthanded mini and slicer turned it insideout it doesnt show in prewiev only when i checked it layer by layer and saw the diference betwen lefty and original